Time transcripts of Cindy-DMAC-interview [00:00:00:00] I'm Cindy Selfe, and my work is in digital media [00:00:04:01] and composition. I work here at Ohio State University [00:00:08:02] where I am Distinguished Humanities Professor in the Department [00:00:12:02] of English. [00:00:16:03] I think that any definition is [00:00:20:07] going to be more or less adequate to the task at hand [00:00:24:08] but for my purposes, when I teach multimodal [00:00:28:08] composition, I'm trying to get students [00:00:32:09] or people who write or compose to think about [00:00:36:09] making meaning in different channels, using [00:00:40:10] audio, or aural, channels of communication [00:00:44:10] uh, moving image or video channels [00:00:48:12] of communication, like animation. Still image [00:00:52:16] or photography, alphabetic... [00:00:56:17] All these are modes of expression. Modes of making meaning [00:01:00:18] and I think when Aristotle says [00:01:04:20] we should use all available means [00:01:08:22] to make meaning, to communicate, to persuade, [00:01:12:25] when I think of that quote I think of all available [00:01:16:26] modalities of expression [00:01:20:27] can and sometimes do come into play when we're trying to make meaning in a given [00:01:24:27] rhetorical context. [00:01:28:28] I think if students are gonna operate [00:01:32:28] in a 21st century world, where communications have to [00:01:36:29] cross cultural boundaries, geopolitical [00:01:41:00] boundaries, linguistic boundaries, um, [00:01:45:02] I think if a student is operating in those environments [00:01:49:03] they're going to have to make meaning in a [00:01:53:04] number of different semiotic channels in order to make themselves [00:01:57:04] understood. So, I can't imagine how a student who is going to [00:02:01:07] communicate in those larger contexts, with [00:02:05:07] networks that are, uh, worldwide...I can't imagine [00:02:09:10] how they're going to be successful in making meaning unless they [00:02:13:11] have all available modes of expression [00:02:17:12] uh, there and ready to use. Now they might not [00:02:21:12] use every modality for every [00:02:25:15] message, but unless we teach them how to access and [00:02:29:16] use these different modalities for communication, how are they ever [00:02:33:19] going to know. How are they going to be able to choose from those modalities [00:02:37:20] given the right rhetorical context, the right purpose, the right [00:02:41:21] audience, the right genre. So I think it is [00:02:45:23] incumbent on us, if we're teachers who are gonna prepare [00:02:49:23] students for that kind of world, I think we'd better teach 'em [00:02:53:25] different ways of making meaning, and then [00:02:57:28] teach them how to make the choices from [00:03:01:28] among different modalities according to the affordances [00:03:05:28] and according to the rhetorical context that they're [00:03:09:29] operating within, and then I think students will have the the tools [00:03:13:29] necessary to accomplish their task of communication. [00:03:18:00] Well, [00:03:22:02] I think professors in other disciplines should also think about [00:03:26:03] multimodality because they're educating young people [00:03:30:04] to operate in the same global context and [00:03:34:07] in those global contexts, um, if you have a lecture class [00:03:38:09] in medicine, for example, that enrolls 500 [00:03:42:09] students, 250 of whom might be speakers of [00:03:46:12] English and a second, third, or fourth language, and you're not [00:03:50:15] using different modes of expression to get across [00:03:54:16] an idea, and you're not teaching them how to use different modes [00:03:58:16] of expression to get across ideas, how are you going [00:04:02:17] to be sure that your instruction gets across, and how are you going [00:04:06:17] to make sure that they can get meaning across to a patient. [00:04:10:19] So for me it's a matter of providing students [00:04:14:20] all the tools they need to make meaning and then teaching [00:04:18:22] them how to choose from among those tools to make meaning [00:04:22:24] effectively. [00:04:26:25] I think they have to forget the habits of mind [00:04:30:26] that many of us have taught them. And [00:04:34:27] the habit of mind I'm talking about is the privileging of [00:04:38:28] alphabetic text, um, as [00:04:42:29] Patricia Dunn says, not as one way of meaning but [00:04:47:01] as THE way of making meaning, or THE [00:04:51:04] cinque non of educated people. I don't believe it is. I think [00:04:55:06] it's one marker of an educated person, but I think [00:04:59:08] there are other markers of educated people. I know for instance, uh, [00:05:03:09] a number of musicians who are great musicians [00:05:07:10] who know so much more than I do about anything [00:05:11:10] in the musical realm, and I don't know [00:05:15:11] their language. I don't know their ways [00:05:19:13] of making meaning, so I'm ignorant in those. [00:05:23:15] I would think that I need to learn their ways of making meaning if [00:05:27:16] I want to match their literacy abilities, too, so [00:05:31:20] for me it's just a matter of putting as [00:05:35:23] many tools in a person's tool belt as possible [00:05:39:27] so that they can use them when the right time comes, in the right [00:05:43:29] circumstances, and that's a matter of rhetorical [00:05:48:00] understanding of context. [00:05:52:01] Well, we have to forget what we know [00:05:56:02] and what we've invested our time in, too. We [00:06:00:03] were, most of us were, or at least my generation, most of us [00:06:04:04] were brought up as print babies, print [00:06:08:05] students. So, you know, when I want to make meaning [00:06:12:07] the first thing I turn to is print. And I can do [00:06:16:09] print pretty well. It's my first language, right. I mean, I can [00:06:20:10] write an article, like, in the [snaps] snap of a [00:06:24:13] finger, um, because I've done it so many times, I'm so familiar [00:06:28:16] with the genre, and with alphabetic ways of making meaning. [00:06:32:18] Um, when I realized that meaning [00:06:36:19] can be made on a number of different channels [00:06:40:20] I really have to think about making meaning [00:06:44:20] using different modalities of expression. It takes me some concentration. [00:06:48:22] I speak those modalities as a second or third [00:06:52:23] or fourth language. And so I'm not quite as fluent in [00:06:56:24] video or audio as I am in print. But [00:07:00:25] I realize that when I combine those modes I can accomplish things that [00:07:04:26] I could not accomplish with print alone, and my texts [00:07:08:28] are different and they can accomplish different things and they can function in [00:07:12:29] different rhetorical contexts effectively, so that [00:07:17:02] to me is the biggest challenge. When I, when I [00:07:21:03] forget the habit of mind, um, that tells me [00:07:25:05] that print is the only way or the best way, to me [00:07:29:06] that's not a rhetorical decision. I have to make that rhetorical. [00:07:33:07] I have to ask myself, "What is this rhetorical context [00:07:37:08] and what ways, or modes of expression, will work [00:07:41:08] best here, and why?" And then I have to combine modes [00:07:45:10] if I'm going to meet the challenges of that rhetorical [00:07:49:10] experience or context. [00:07:53:11] hmm. Yeah. The challenges for programs, I think, [00:07:57:13] are a bit different. Um, programs, first of all, [00:08:01:14] have to have equipment, and they have to have [00:08:05:16] space. Uh, and that equipment goes out of date [00:08:09:18] and it gets broken by students and the spaces have to be [00:08:13:20] specially crafted so that the kinds of [00:08:17:23] composition that takes place with video or audio can be [00:08:21:23] accomplished. And so schools have to understand [00:08:25:24] that Composition programs aren't your grandmother's [00:08:29:25] Composition program anymore, right? I mean, if you're gonna run a [00:08:33:25] composition program that teaches audio and video composing, [00:08:37:26] you're going to have to provide small studio spaces, [00:08:41:28] you're going to have to provide [00:08:46:01] cameras and audio recording equipment, [00:08:50:02] you're going to have to provide editing programs and computers for [00:08:54:05] um, a program that has traditionally [00:08:58:08] been a, uh, seen as a non-technological [00:09:02:11] program. So, it takes a lot [00:09:06:14] of education on behalf of the WPA, the person, [00:09:10:17] the Writing Program Administrator, who has to educate the department, and [00:09:14:17] on up the ladder in the university, and it takes a [00:09:18:18] far-sighted university to realize that we're not educating students [00:09:22:19] to be citizens who can only make meaning [00:09:26:21] through print; we're educating people to make [00:09:30:22] meaning in a very complex globalized environment that [00:09:34:23] requires multiple, so I would say: space, [00:09:38:25] equipment, and software [00:09:42:26] are three huge, um...challenges [00:09:46:28] for programs who want to undertake [00:09:51:00] the teaching of multimodal composition. But they're not the biggest challenges. [00:09:55:02] The biggest challenges...the biggest challenge is [00:09:59:03] finding a person who can lead you forward [00:10:03:04] in that, um, toward that goal [00:10:07:04] or purpose of integrating multimodal composing into [00:10:11:05] your program without losing sight of [00:10:15:06] the, um, the goals of teaching [00:10:19:07] rhetorical composing at the same time, because [00:10:23:08] if you start privileging technology over [00:10:27:10] the rhetorical composing part of a program I think you lose [00:10:31:11] out, too. So you have to find a person who will help you [00:10:35:13] teach with technology in the context of rhetorical [00:10:39:14] composing program. [claps hands] [00:10:43:17] When [00:10:47:18] teachers think that multimodal work is dumbed down work [00:10:51:19] sometimes they need to, you need to show them [00:10:55:22] a good piece of multimodal work and reverse engineer [00:10:59:25] it for them, so that they can see what is involved at every [00:11:03:26] stage of the game. How richly textured [00:11:07:28] and layered and focused and [00:11:12:01] elaborated that piece of multimodal work is [00:11:16:03] before they can appreciate it. When we do that, and I have [00:11:20:06] done that when I've gone out to different places to speak, [00:11:24:07] they're taken aback. Then they start realizing [00:11:28:08] what they've been thinking all along may not have been the [00:11:32:09] case. Um, just like anything, if you don't know what goes into [00:11:36:10] a craft, you're not going to appreciate it. [00:11:40:11] So, I think we need to take our time and show [00:11:44:13] colleagues excellent examples of multimodal composing [00:11:48:14] and then reverse engineer those pieces to show [00:11:52:16] what goes into them and why they're equally [00:11:56:18] as intellectually challenging as printed works.